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Jean Stafford
Master
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Dayton, Ohio
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Rules.?!?? |
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O.K. Rules committee members, tell me something.
There seems to be a rule that "If ytou ask to go out on the tail of the qualifying race, you'll be put on the tail for the upcvoming races."
If, however, you fail to start until the rest of the grid leaves, you'll NOT be put on the tail.
Can someone explain the resoning for this rule?
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Jean Stafford
Stafford's Racing
4606 Webster St.
Dayton, Ohio
937-277-9944
E-Mail: Jean@sgandt.com |
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John Horn
Master
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 702
Location: Troy Ohio
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I was on the rules committee, and that rule did not come up to my knowledge. I was a little stunned that we couldn't switch places in qualifying either, but yet if someone in front of us didn't start, you could go ahead?
Not sure how I feel about the whole thing. |
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Jean Stafford
Master
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 637
Location: Dayton, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Here's my beef John.
Our driver was lnown to be 4 seconds slower than some of those behind her. It seems silly to penalize someone for creating a safer condition. After all, who cares in what position they go out on the track, the transponder should keep the correct time. She would have to have a 16 second head startm, and then sahe'd have been nearly passed.
Who comes up with these thoughts anyway? Better, how do they become rules without the Committee members neverr heariong about them?
Just got off the phone, and I understand why thhis was done, sort of. It has to do with the scoring system, that wonfergul piece of technology that makes life easier. See,s that the transponder numbers have to be loaded into the system defore the event, each time?? This means that if you don't go out with your GROUP, you don;e get scored.
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Jean Stafford
Stafford's Racing
4606 Webster St.
Dayton, Ohio
937-277-9944
E-Mail: Jean@sgandt.com |
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John Horn
Master
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 702
Location: Troy Ohio
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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I know for a fact, that i didn't go out in order, my wife didn't go out in order, and my daughter did not go out in order.
I think the system will keep track of your times as long as you are on the track, that is why we all have different transponder numbers.
You may have to be in the correct group, and go out with your group, but the order you move onto the track should not make a difference????
I feel if you are slower, or faster, you should be able to speak with your competitors, and have them let you out, just as a courtesy, if not, are we to wait, and space our selves out so that we don't think we will interfere, or be interfered with on our lap???? |
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Eric Bradford
Master
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 379
Location: Lakeside Park, KY
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: |
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I had a similar situation in Masters for OVKA #2. I was drawn to go out 2nd of 14, all in one group. I had never seen the new section before Sunday and my best practice that a.m was some 48+ and I knew the gents going out behind me would be qualifying @ 46. All the yak on the grid was "you gota stay in the order given" and I warned the next 3 or 4 that I was off. The Race director hurried everybody off the grid and by back of the 2nd lap I found myself cutting off one of my fellow racers and then being passed by a 3some on the other side.
I'm sure that I affected all 4 as to their Q. times and It may have affected mine as I was not expecting passing during quallifying. Needless to say that all 4 (and most of the Masters class) had practiced the new section and were faster than me but I remember in the past that the grid worker or race director would space the karts in the group and especially w/ the advent of the new section etc. it would be good to be able to place oneself as to not hamper others or cause a blockage. After all the talk of Q being safer etc. I wonder.
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Eric Bradford #53 Masters Yamaha (Mid-Pack Club Racer at best) If... |
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Kathy20
Just Another Club Racer
Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1334
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree that there were problems. I did hear an announcement pre-Q that in the future we would line up according to point standings, but that wasn't possible this time due to rain out last time. That will help some I guess but I don't see a problem with us rearranging ourselves on the grid. I know I for one pretty much ignored the grid marshal's wave and waited a few more seconds before I went out to give the kart ahead more of a lead. Or maybe I shouldn't admit that publicly......... |
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Doug Stempfley II
Master
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 829
Location: Trenton, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well we got all mixed up on Jr Yam #1 and missed Q all together. I thought it was the same order as warm-ups.....NOPE and we missed Qing. and satrted on 8th (last) for the pre final.
But my driver made up for it by going to the front in 2 laps. 
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Doug Stempfley II
O.V.KA Board Member
2008 Stempfley Race Season
OVKA Double Champion, Jr Yamaha 1 & 2
Sponsored By Upbeats DJ's, APPCO, L&T Clutches, Storage Plus, Slattery Chassis & State Farm. Arrow Karts Powered By APPCO Racing Engines |
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Toshiya
Master
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1013
Location: Downtown Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: |
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IMO, the line up shouldn't be matter as long as you are in the group.
But if you are concerned about where you are on the grid, you should be able to change your position.
Again, this is just my opinion.
When we run Man-Cup, we sometimes have 3 or 4 groups depend on the size of the class. Drivers usually decide where you want to be in the group. Most of time, the faster drivers are in the front and slower drivers in the back within the group. When we first started racing Man-Cup, we let faster kids in front of us becuase we knew faster kids will catch my son.
FYI
Other series like Rotax series check your practice times and they line up the qualifying grid with your practice times. This way, they don't usually have problem with faster driver catching slower driver or slower driver have to worry about being passed during qualifying.
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HeadFlagJosh43
Corner Worker
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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It is in the rulebook that for qualifying you will go out based on points. We were snake bitten in that we had a rain out at race #1 which caused everyone to have first place points. this will all work its self out by the next race. We can not allow you to decide who you want to go out in front of. Think of qualifying as Heat #1, you still have to line up just as you would for any other Race. It is up to the driver to space yourself out once on the race track. We have rules for a reason and we cannot allow somebody to just decide who they want to go out in front of or behind. It does not work that way.
I would like to wish everyone good luck over the next couple of months. I will see all of you back at the track in mid August. |
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Toshiya
Master
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 1013
Location: Downtown Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Josh,
It was just my opinion and I will follow the club rule.
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HeadFlagJosh43
Corner Worker
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| I know, I just wanted everyone else to know why the decisions were made the way that they were. That post was not directed towards you, it was directed towards the entire public. |
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Eric Bradford
Master
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 379
Location: Lakeside Park, KY
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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Rules (including this one) make more sense once I hear the reason and or a little history on whys. Thanks!
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Eric Bradford #53 Masters Yamaha (Mid-Pack Club Racer at best) If... |
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Gary Osterholt
Master
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| HeadFlagJosh43 wrote: | It is in the rulebook that for qualifying you will go out based on points. We were snake bitten in that we had a rain out at race #1 which caused everyone to have first place points. this will all work its self out by the next race. We can not allow you to decide who you want to go out in front of. Think of qualifying as Heat #1, you still have to line up just as you would for any other Race. It is up to the driver to space yourself out once on the race track. We have rules for a reason and we cannot allow somebody to just decide who they want to go out in front of or behind. It does not work that way.
I would like to wish everyone good luck over the next couple of months. I will see all of you back at the track in mid August. |
Josh
So the rule is that a driver has to go out in a certain order? So that's just to leave the pits?
So if I was racing, me and 3 or 4 of my buddies could go out in whatever order and go slow until all of us were together?
That's within the rules right? Yes from what you said. Is it safe? NO.
I personally don't see how it makes sense if someone wants to be safe and not go out in front of someone that's faster than them.
Gary
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Gary Osterholt
Master
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| HeadFlagJosh43 wrote: | It is in the rulebook that for qualifying you will go out based on points. We were snake bitten in that we had a rain out at race #1 which caused everyone to have first place points. this will all work its self out by the next race.
We have rules for a reason and we cannot allow somebody to just decide who they want to go out in front of or behind. It does not work that way.
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So if you normally go out in Points and with Race 2 everyone having the same points, why follow the rule that is OBVIOUS not a good rule for that time. As a Race Director you can make a JUDGEMENT call that is better for the club in terms of safety and still with in the spirit and intent of the rule.
Gary
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HeadFlagJosh43
Corner Worker
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary, If we had changed the rule for race #2 we would have set a precedent and we could not do that, if we are going to allow it for one event we would have to allow it for the other events as well. the way it is in the rule book is the way we had to do it. |
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HeadFlagJosh43
Corner Worker
Joined: 21 May 2007
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Gary, It was the faster parents and drivers, not the slower ones, that made it their mission to set the grid, the faster drivers were the only ones upset. |
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Scott Benson
Junior
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 101
Location: West Chester, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Josh,
Thats because it was the faster drivers that were getting held up. If a faster driver gets held up in traffic (lets not forget he was only getting two green flag laps) and qualifies 5 tenths to a second slower than his average lap times he was running in practice , doesn't that kinda defeat the whole reason we were qualifying for this race?
If we are going to qualify like this in the future, where it is up to the driver to create his own space so he does not catch the slower kart in front of him I suggest we make that very clear in the drivers meeting so that everyone knows whats going on and is very clear how things are going to work. It is apparent by all the complaining that this was not made clear last sunday.
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Benson Axle Straightening
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RANDY J.V.
Senior Novice
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 192
Location: SPRINGFIELD, OHIO
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:39 am Post subject: |
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OK I have heard enough. Can someone show me this rule you are talking about? After discussing this with the key people that run the show I was told " It really does not matter where on the grid you start for qualifing just that you be in you correct group."  I know in the past we have been able to do this. I know that the sportsman yamaha class did it last year because we all discussed it so we could all get clean, safe, fair laps for qualifing.
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Rick C
Sportsman
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 83
Location: Collinsville, Oh.
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hey,
You need to remember that from here on out the grid will be set by points standings so it will not be an issue. You will line up this way because this is what the membership wanted so it was put into the rulebook. You WILL lineup for qualifying where you are shown on the grid sheets. Race #2 was an issue because race #1 was a rainout and everyone who entered race #1 had the same points in the class they signed up for that day.
Keep in mind that down the road a driver with more points may be slower in time than you but will still start in front of you. This is what the membership wanted. It is your responsibility to get the best time that you can. End of story.
Rick C.
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Gary Osterholt
Master
Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Tallahassee, FL
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| RANDY J.V. wrote: | | OK I have heard enough. Can someone show me this rule you are talking about? After discussing this with the key people that run the show I was told " It really does not matter where on the grid you start for qualifing just that you be in you correct group." I know in the past we have been able to do this. I know that the sportsman yamaha class did it last year because we all discussed it so we could all get clean, safe, fair laps for qualifing. |
Randy J.V.
Here it is on Page 21
| Quote: | FIRST HEAT RACE: Is lined up with the LOWEST DRAW NUMBER to the front, and higher numbers alternating
beside and behind. POLE POSITION goes to the lowest number drawn, TAIL POSITION to the highest number for
the 1st race.
Exception: For qualifying events, the initial grid lineup to qualify will be based on point standings at the time; visiting
competitors will be lined up at the rear of the field. (3/6/07) |
Here's a rule that I find rather interesting.
| Quote: | Rule 405 - The loss of a transponder during a heat, or the failure of the transponder to operate for the entire heat, will result in a
last place finish for that heat. (3/6/07) |
Does OVKA rent transponders? If so I'd be really really really upset if I rented one, it stopped working and I didn't get scored. Or what happens if the computer crashes? No scoring is done?
Gary
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Gary Osterholt
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